Comments on: Mid-Side and Blumlein recording with the Zoom H4n http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/21/mid-side-and-blumlein-recording-with-the-zoom-h4n/ Home recording and acoustic guitars Thu, 25 Feb 2010 06:05:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Anton Emery http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/21/mid-side-and-blumlein-recording-with-the-zoom-h4n/comment-page-1/#comment-86 Anton Emery Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:17:37 +0000 http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/?p=221#comment-86 Not cutting any tracks at home at the moment, just lusting over some recording gear. A friend might be leaving his MOTU 8pre and some mics in my care for a bit, so perhaps i will have some gear to experiment with. I would like to get an interface and some mics for myself eventually, but with doing the recording for album at Doug's, it just doesnt make sense at the moment. I hope to head down to Doug's in the next few months to finish up the tracks for my cd. Got 4 more to go. Its really nice working at his place, such a relaxing environment, and nice guitars sitting around to play. Anton Not cutting any tracks at home at the moment, just lusting over some recording gear. A friend might be leaving his MOTU 8pre and some mics in my care for a bit, so perhaps i will have some gear to experiment with. I would like to get an interface and some mics for myself eventually, but with doing the recording for album at Doug’s, it just doesnt make sense at the moment.

I hope to head down to Doug’s in the next few months to finish up the tracks for my cd. Got 4 more to go. Its really nice working at his place, such a relaxing environment, and nice guitars sitting around to play.

Anton

]]> By: Fran Guidry http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/21/mid-side-and-blumlein-recording-with-the-zoom-h4n/comment-page-1/#comment-83 Fran Guidry Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:06:20 +0000 http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/?p=221#comment-83 Hey, Anton, The setup you describe is exactly what you need. The inverted track is the one on the "back" side of the mid mic. So if the mid mic is arranged with its front side facing right, you invert the left track. That should do it. Are you cutting more tracks at home? I need to book some time with Doug myself, so I can try out that R88! Thanks for stopping by, Fran Hey, Anton,

The setup you describe is exactly what you need. The inverted track is the one on the “back” side of the mid mic. So if the mid mic is arranged with its front side facing right, you invert the left track.

That should do it.

Are you cutting more tracks at home? I need to book some time with Doug myself, so I can try out that R88!

Thanks for stopping by,
Fran

]]> By: Anton Emery http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/21/mid-side-and-blumlein-recording-with-the-zoom-h4n/comment-page-1/#comment-82 Anton Emery Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:44:20 +0000 http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/?p=221#comment-82 Nice post Fran. I have a question, would the following be the correct way to record MS as well? Two mics, a cardoid for the mid mic, and a figure eight mic for the side mic. The mid mic is assigned to a mono track, the figure 8 mic to a stereo track. Record my guitar, then invert the polarity on one of the channels of the stereo track using a Logic plugin. Then do you adjust the Mid to Side balance by adjusting the volume of the respective tracks? Or does it involve panning as well. Anton Nice post Fran. I have a question, would the following be the correct way to record MS as well?

Two mics, a cardoid for the mid mic, and a figure eight mic for the side mic. The mid mic is assigned to a mono track, the figure 8 mic to a stereo track. Record my guitar, then invert the polarity on one of the channels of the stereo track using a Logic plugin. Then do you adjust the Mid to Side balance by adjusting the volume of the respective tracks? Or does it involve panning as well.

Anton

]]> By: Fran http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/21/mid-side-and-blumlein-recording-with-the-zoom-h4n/comment-page-1/#comment-79 Fran Thu, 09 Apr 2009 22:41:03 +0000 http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/?p=221#comment-79 Russell, thanks for stopping by. I appreciate your opinion on the sound of the recording. I've only been doing this for a few years and I don't think I'll ever catch up on the listening end of things. A friend of mine has been using an AEA R88 stereo ribbon, and to me his M/S and Blum sound identical. And gorgeous. I was really tempted by a recent Ebay auction but I resisted. Do you have an opinion on the Schoeps MK8 compared to a pair of ribbons? That's another "investment" I've been resisting. I noticed on Gearslutz that you use K&H O300s. Any opinion on the O110? Thanks again for your comments, Fran Russell, thanks for stopping by. I appreciate your opinion on the sound of the recording. I’ve only been doing this for a few years and I don’t think I’ll ever catch up on the listening end of things.

A friend of mine has been using an AEA R88 stereo ribbon, and to me his M/S and Blum sound identical. And gorgeous. I was really tempted by a recent Ebay auction but I resisted.

Do you have an opinion on the Schoeps MK8 compared to a pair of ribbons? That’s another “investment” I’ve been resisting.

I noticed on Gearslutz that you use K&H O300s. Any opinion on the O110?

Thanks again for your comments,
Fran

]]> By: Russell Dawkins http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/21/mid-side-and-blumlein-recording-with-the-zoom-h4n/comment-page-1/#comment-78 Russell Dawkins Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:07:15 +0000 http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/?p=221#comment-78 I noticed the Blumlein recording of the guitar sounded considerably more diffuse than the MS version. I am guessing this is a function of the relatively poor off-axis response of most circular diaphragm condensors, especially large diaphragm condensors. Although I know you have returned the unit, a repeat of this test with ribbon mics would be enlightening, as ribbons have very good off axis response - at least horizontal, when the ribbon element is vertical, due to the narrow dimension of the ribbon when compared to the diameter of a circular diaphragm. With ribbons, the MS should sound more like the Blumlein. I recorded orchestras and choirs for years with a Royer SF12 in MS and so often found that I decoded it 50/50 MS (which is the equivalent of Blumlein) that I eventually went straight to Blumlein to save the degradation of the decoding, which at that time was done in the analog domain. Connected with all this (off axis response quality considerations) is the reason ribbons do so well with room tone - the response is pretty constant in a torus around the mic, so everything within that is of good fidelity. I used to wonder why the room that sounded not bad in real life sounded so lousy when captured by a microphone. Then I figured out that when recording at any distance much of what is heard by the mic arrives off axis, and "LDCs" sound variously lousy off axis. I noticed the Blumlein recording of the guitar sounded considerably more diffuse than the MS version. I am guessing this is a function of the relatively poor off-axis response of most circular diaphragm condensors, especially large diaphragm condensors.
Although I know you have returned the unit, a repeat of this test with ribbon mics would be enlightening, as ribbons have very good off axis response – at least horizontal, when the ribbon element is vertical, due to the narrow dimension of the ribbon when compared to the diameter of a circular diaphragm.

With ribbons, the MS should sound more like the Blumlein.
I recorded orchestras and choirs for years with a Royer SF12 in MS and so often found that I decoded it 50/50 MS (which is the equivalent of Blumlein) that I eventually went straight to Blumlein to save the degradation of the decoding, which at that time was done in the analog domain.
Connected with all this (off axis response quality considerations) is the reason ribbons do so well with room tone – the response is pretty constant in a torus around the mic, so everything within that is of good fidelity.
I used to wonder why the room that sounded not bad in real life sounded so lousy when captured by a microphone. Then I figured out that when recording at any distance much of what is heard by the mic arrives off axis, and “LDCs” sound variously lousy off axis.

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